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Talking Headlines - by Bill Green

 

INHUMAN FBI ABDUCT MOTHER AND HER THREE CHILDREN AND HIDE THEM AT A TORTURE BASE FOR FIVE YEARS

August 5th 2008 03:40
America's inhuman intelligence community has once again carried out an appalling miscarriage of justice. Five years ago the FBI abducted a thirty-five year woman and her three children from Karachi, Pakistan. The woman was a neuro-scientist and they believed she had links to al-Qa'ida. One has to ask, and the children? Were they also linked?

The FBI haven't made any statement about the children.

A fellow former detainee at the Bagram air base, near Kabul, says Aafia Siddiqi, is now insane and cries all the time. Wow, the FBI have fallen into the terrorists' trap and have become far more dreadful and deluded than the terrorist, for they have known about the concept of justice since Hoover said goodbye, and have now denied the humanity they experienced during their life.


But those US military personnel at the base must indeed be Nazi like in their following of their leaders into the brutal and criminal behaviour of official torturers and executioners. I can recall how we couldn't believe that the German people could have followed the Nazis conduct. Now members of a western democracy have destroyed any credibility they may have had. Not even Obama can drag the country out of such disgrace. Who could trust anything the Americans now do about anything?
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45 Comments. [ Add A Comment ]

Comment by Johnny Come Lately

August 5th 2008 04:42
As the bumper sticker reads:

Be nice to America or we'll bring democracy to your country.

Comment by TimmyH

August 5th 2008 07:09
Hahaha Funny Johnny!

This is disturbing...

Comment by Damo

August 5th 2008 07:56
Disturbing story.
My wife Uncle has been working in Pakistan for over 30 years and will be returning there soon,

Do you have a link for this story.

Comment by Bill Green

August 5th 2008 09:44
Yes, there's some scorching of the underbelly here.

Damo the story has been run in The Australian (today) without comment.

Comment by Damo

August 5th 2008 09:52
I'll check it out online.

Comment by Cheryl J

August 5th 2008 12:30
What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?

Mahatma Gandhi

I wish I could say this surprises me but sadly it doesn't. It chills me to the core.

Comment by Jonathan Biviano

August 5th 2008 14:02
It is amazing you all jump to the conclusion that the article in The Australian, a very, very left wing newspaper that from the International headlines I read focuses on the mistakes of the militaries around the world that protect them as the gospel.

Want some facts? There's no evidence the kids came to any harm! And this "innocent" woman is easily Googled to find out that she is a dangerous terrorist.

You can read about it at Wikipedia. Here's an excerpt:

Subsequent to the Fleet National Bank investigation, Aafia Siddiqui was found to be purchasing high-tech military equipment, items that seemed unusual for her occupation as a microbiologist. According to Newsweek, FBI documents also stated that Khan, Siddiqui’s husband, had purchased body armor, night-vision goggles and a variety of military manuals that were supposed to be sent to Pakistan. Fleet National Bank accounts associated with the couple also showed "major purchases" from U.S. airlines and hotels in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania and North Carolina as well as an $8,000 international wire transfer on December 21, 2001, to Habib Bank, a big Pakistani financial institution that has long been scrutinized by U.S. intelligence officials monitoring terrorist money flows

AND Who says she's gone nuts? A fellow detainee with a bone to pick with the U.S.?

For all your libs talk of tolerance, the one group you don't allow to make even the slightest mistake, if any mistake was made, is the very people keeping you from being bombed. You want to tolerate the terrorist funding bomb maker and not allow for human error trying to protect you from her.

Comment by Mountain Fog

August 5th 2008 14:19
Bill, it does not surprise me, however, it is symptomatic of the current administration's attitude to human rights and the notion of a true democracy; ergo, no democracy, just a bunch of hired psychopaths ready and willing to do the bidding of the powerful elite.

However sad a situation this may be, it is much sadder, to think of how much more of this has gone on in the past undetected, and the fact that it will be continuing in the future, just more clandestine.

Aussies, Poms and Yanks fought this kind of tyranny in WW1 and WW2, and not one of them, many of my family included, knew they were actually fighting for a new kind of 'reich', a 'corporate reich', that hasn't the intestinal fortitude to come clean and admit what they really are, totalitarian facists!

cheers

fog

P.S. One other thing, this pales in comparison compared to the lies and subterfuge used to hide who really organized 911 and what actually happened that dreadful day.

Comment by Jonathan Biviano

August 5th 2008 14:22
Right after I posted this, I went into the room with the TV and guess who's face popped up on Good Morning America? That's right, Siddiqui!

Apparently she was arrested LAST MONTH and as one of the Google links I linked in my last comment reported, tried to kill those arresting her by grabbing a rifle and shooting at them!

She is now in NEW YORK CITY, awaiting trial as the American that she is!

But, you go on hating your country. The terrorists hate it too, because we're free to speak our mind. Lets just do our research before bad mouthing it.

Comment by Bill Green

August 5th 2008 21:13
fog, I agree, the administration that undertakes torture as part of interrogation has to be examined by others. The recent disclosures of the 17 US navy rendering ships is sickening.

Johnathon, American intelligence has edited/altered Wikipedia over thirty times. See Harper's magazine and Herald's news diary that followed up my posts. And Wikipedia's entry has given out that information with only intelligence agencies as informants.

At least she's awaiting trial now. She wasn't before, while being held in Afghanistan.

I'll decide how dangerous she is when I read the court's evidence.

And I think some of the panic over terrorism should be directed at the American intelligence authorities and those that allow the torture of abducted innocents.

Comment by Bill Green

August 5th 2008 21:20
Before posting the above comment I should have checked my facts. Wikipedia has been altered 310 time by the CIA, according to Harpers

Comment by RubySoho

August 6th 2008 00:12
Haha. I love that Jonathan thinks the Australian is a "very, very left wing" newspaper.

Well I guess anything even slightly to the left of Genghis Kahn qualifies as Communist to fans of the Bush administration.


Comment by D. Armenta

August 6th 2008 00:44
How about an uninvolved source, then: The U.K. Times?

US officials insisted that they had no knowledge of her whereabouts until she was arrested by Afghan police for acting suspiciously outside the governor’s compound in the central Afghan province of Ghazni on July 17. They said that Ms Siddiqui was with a teenage boy at the time.

Prosecutors said that numerous documents were found in her handbag about “the creation of explosives, chemical weapons and other weapons”. Ms Siddiqui is also alleged to have had descriptions of landmarks in the US, documents about US military assets and excerpts from The Anarchist Arsenal.

and--
Her trial should shed light on the mystery surrounding her disappearance with her children from the Pakistani city of Karachi in 2003. Her family claimed that she was abducted and imprisoned in a secret US detention centre
.

Right now it's right at "He said/she said". Hints, allegations and hearsay.

Why not wait until the actual trial and see what the facts are instead of posting this inflammatory bullshit?

This isn't news. It's rabble-rousing. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Comment by RubySoho

August 6th 2008 00:57
D. is right. After all the trial of David Hicks really shed light on his involvement with al-qaeda right?

I mean six years held in detention without trial and tortured. Six years for the US to uncover some really hard core evidence against him. Six years and all they could trump up was "providing material support for terrorists".

Not only a stupid charge but a retroactive "crime" that did not exist at the time he supposedly committed it.
Facts haha. No such thing where this administration is concerned.

Three cheers for Bush and Co.

Comment by D. Armenta

August 6th 2008 01:29
Ah, it's Ruby Soho-- always the voice of reason. Always ready to investigate the facts of the matter instead of jumping aboard a rumor like a sheep.

When are you going to stop trying to segregate everyone by country, race,age, religion or gender? Humans are humans, Ruby, and a lot of them are assholes.

Here's a link you may find amusing: it's a site for students that lists transcripts for all of the corrupt trial and police interrogations in Australia, Ruby. Enjoy, and reflect that assholes and corruption are everywhere in this big world.

Me, I'll be waiting for the trial evidence till I pass any judgments.

Comment by RubySoho

August 6th 2008 01:41
Um, all I was doing was criticisng the BUSH ADMINSTRATION.

Please point out to me my comment on this post where I was segregating anyone by anything. Gender? Religion? What are you talking about?

My point is that trial evidence in the BUSH ADMINSTRATION is perhaps not very reliable.

I'm not saying she is innocent or guilty. Only that this current administration is known for well, lying. So who to trust?

And if innocent until proven guilty, has her treatment thus far been fair?

But nice of you to turn this post into a personal attack against me. That's shows how objective you are. Thanks for the link. Like I ever said Australia was perfect. Like I have never criticised my own country's politicians on my own blog. Nope. never. never, ever, ever.

Grow up D. That was a ridiculous comment you just made.

Comment by D. Armenta

August 6th 2008 01:46
Re: David Hicks, let's hear from Peter Costello, Treasurer of the Australian government until recently:

I think a lot of people have forgotten how all this started. David Hicks was in Afghanistan after the al-Qa'ida attack murdered thousands of people in the World Trade Centre. He wasn’t there as a backpacker going through the youth hostels of Afghanistan. He had trained in terrorism and when the Coalition forces went in to look for the al-Qa'ida organisation he was captured. Now it is true that it has taken far too long to bring him to trial and he ought to be brought to trial immediately. But I think some of the rhetoric has got out of control here Alan, as if he was some poor innocent abroad, backpacking through the sites and the sounds of Afghanistan. He was in Afghanistan because he had been trained by al-Qa'ida. He had been given weapons training. This was the organisation which he knew had just murdered thousands of people in New York including Australians. Australians died in the World Trade Centre. So by all means, the man is entitled to a trial, but let’s not sanctify what he did or why he was there."

Comment by D. Armenta

August 6th 2008 01:47
D. is right. After all the trial of David Hicks really shed light on his involvement with al-qaeda right?

Don't start shit, then protest when it gets slung right back at you, Ruby.

Comment by RubySoho

August 6th 2008 01:54
Actually since Hicks was only found guilty of "providing material support for terrorists", there is no proof he had actually trained as a terrorist.

Point is D, he was locked up and tortured for six years without a trial.

The Hicks trial was not simply a matter of is he innocent or guilty but a matter of is the American government's treatment of its prisoners ethical and humane?

Answer is, not it is not. Secret prisons all over the world. Teenagers held without charge and trial. Admissions of torture. But it's okay, they are the good guys.

And how much does Costello contradict himself? Claims that Hicks was entitled to a trial but was quite happy for him to be locked up in Gitmo for six years without one.



Comment by RubySoho

August 6th 2008 01:59
Don't start shit, then protest when it gets slung right back at you, Ruby.

Um excuse me, my comment was aimed at your argument. Not at you. I didn't accuse you of anything except being incorrect in this particular instance.

There is a difference between attacking a person's argument and attacking them.

I don't see how saying "D. is right" is equivalent to accusing someone of being a sheep, never checking references and basically being a sexist, a racist and a bigot which is what you did.

By all means stand up for your comments but don't turn this into a shit slinging match and then have the nerve to accuse me of starting it.

Comment by Morgan Bell

August 6th 2008 07:21
seems like the case of Aafia Siddiqui is a bit like "the disappeared" in South America . . . well allegedly, according to her family and certain journalists . . . i dont think its a beat-up or "bullshit", i think its a real allegation that requires investigation

But her family say that far from being arrested last month, Ms Siddiqui disappeared from the Pakistani city of Karachi in 2003, along with her three children.

They fear that Ms Siddiqui has been the subject of extraordinary rendition, snatched off the street and held in secret for five years, during which, they suspect, she has been brutally interrogated. Several high-profile al-Qaeda suspects have been held at a detention facility at Bagram airbase in Afghanistan under conditions of such secrecy that they are nicknamed "ghost" prisoners.

One British journalist, Yvonne Ridley, suggested last year that Ms Siddiqui could be the supposed "grey lady of Bagram", a Pakistani woman who has allegedly been held there for years.

UK Times online Really Long Link

Comment by RubySoho

August 6th 2008 07:54
Hey Morgan, the BBC said pretty much the same thing:

Really Long Link

Oops there I go, not investigating the facts of the matter again.



Comment by Bill Green

August 6th 2008 10:52
D.Armenta, America and Australia are wanting to persecute those who trained with the Taliban but don't go forward to persecute those who trained the Taliban in the first place. Of course they were very horrible individuals then, but hey, were they as bad as the Russians? Yes. Just as they are now. Didn't the US have any suspicion their training may backfire on them.

Maybe David Hicks was gung-ho (although he was running away from conflict when picked up) because he knew the Americans had trained these guys - after all America's military movies are a huge part of their foreign policy. Those movies are to make people love them. That's why the military finance them by supplying all the special effects toys.

And Jack Thomas from whom I bought white goods when he worked in an electrical business in Williamstown Hey?Electrical business, that's suspicious. Jack loved to walk the waterfront in his Islamic gear to be centre of attention, and attract one particular girl. I personally didn't see him signaling any suspicious craft in those waters, but, you know, he could have been. He was an ignorant kid on an adventure and he was rendered and tortured and sexually abused by the CIA and their henchmen.

I'd like to add that Siddiqui received a classic "verballing" in Wikipedia and such a style could only come from American intelligence (Did I say that?).

Ruby, you made a very clear point. It was never proven Hicks trained with anyone.

Morgan, that "disappeared" concept needs a new airing.

Comment by Jonathan Biviano

August 6th 2008 14:47
I am so enlightened.

I didn't realize human beings made mistakes. I thought when they were scared and very concerned that bombs might go off in the cities of their family and friends they would always act above reproach.

My bad.

But you know, when my family and friends make mistakes, say things that hurt me or do things that hurt me, I don't hate them, we work through those mistakes and still love and respect each other.

What I see is the desire here to tear America as a country down because of possible, unsubstantiated stories, or one or two anecdotal cases. Have soldiers, intelligence officers and other people made human error? Absolutely, it's part of being human.

Could some of it be secret, wrong American policy? Yup. The difference here is that because it happens in awesome America, it's reported, it's caught and brought to people's attention much sooner. It's corrected by pressure by the voters. It's not reported by Amnesty International after years of being hidden and then allowed to continue because it's in a dictatorship where the people can't effect change and liberals won't let us go overthrow them.

One minute it's not our business that a country has two decades of mass torture, disappearances and other crimes. The next America, the land where you can actually be punished for violating even civil rights, is being painted with broad strokes for a handful of mistakes by individuals acting in her name.

That's my biggest problem with this. Whatever is the truth behind Siddiqui, it's the attempt to say that this respresents who America is. America is no more perfect than any human being, but it's better than any other place in the world.

Comment by Bill Green

August 7th 2008 02:26
Charles Dickens said it best," It was the best of times, it was the worst of times." The same for America. It's the best of countries, it's the worst of countries. Why? Well it's artists and writers were without peer last century. Faulkner, Fitzgerald,yes Steinbeck, Hemingway, Flannery O.Connor, Norman Mailer, Joyce Carol , Joseph Heller (who wrote the manual for Iraq - Catch 22) Love the above stuff. Also Dashiell Hammet etc; love Bud Schulberg, screenwriter etc.

I hate the racism, fundamentalism, prejudice, consumerism and the lust for oil (which has spread everywhere) although many countries are doing a great deal to disentangle themselves. But it was the lust for oil that turned America into a monster that distorted their view of human rights..

Comment by Mountain Fog

August 7th 2008 16:18
David Hicks was in Afghanistan after the al-Qa'ida attack murdered thousands of people in the World Trade Centre.

HUH???? D are you serious??? ... sorry, but I must protest, no one has proved a damn thing in this respect, our idiot ex-Treasurer is just bumb licking his military superior's arse, by generally and uncritically supporting the USA position, as usual..

The only "evidence" about 911 and Al Qaeda involvement in it, has been heresay, originally stated by the likes of Rumsfeld and Cheney within hours of the attacks!

There has been no such evidence produced publicly... well, until it gets manufactured, like the the WMDs Saddam was supposed to have... however, in contrast to that conspiracy theory, the real conspiracy has been swept under the carpet, and there are plenty of red blooded Americans who have come out attacking the so called 'evidence' of 911 events, and the first class evidence, film by CBS, NBC etc, showing that the causes of the building collapses and the Pentagon attack, were not backed by the visual evidence.

I know it seems like everyone is down on Americans, but no, everyone is getting fed up with the lies and manipulations the current administration has perpetrated since it got in power.

I personally love and appreciate all the good aspects of America, and I have Americans in my family, however, let us not devolve a debate into a blanket knee jerk reaction defending people who have abused the right of law and human rights, and all for big corporation financial benefit!!

I don't have to include any links to this, the amount of information in the world press and even some American press, is overwhelming to the point of impeachment.

But, as for 911, here is a few of statements to ponder upon...

"The FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden with the 9/11 attacks on america"
- FBI spokesman Rex Tomb


What about General Wesley Clark's comments about the investigation into 911.

Video interview ABC's This Week with George Stephanopoulos 3/5/06:
General Wesley Clark: QUOTE:
"I think when you look at this country, right now, we need a 2-party system that works. We need Congress to do its job. We need real investigation of some of the abuses of authority that are apparently going on at the Executive branch. ... We've never finished the investigation of 9/11 and whether the administration actually misused the intelligence information it had. The evidence seems pretty clear to me. I've seen that for a long time."


How about this General's opinion regarding the offical Bush administration explanation for events on 911;

Major General Albert Stubblebine, U.S. Army (ret) – Former Commanding General of U.S. Army Intelligence and Security Command, 1981 - 1984. Also commanded the U.S. Army’s Electronic Research and Development Command and the U.S. Army’s Intelligence School and Center. Former head of Imagery Interpretation for Scientific and Technical Intelligence. 32-year Army career.

Major General Albert Stubblebine: QUOTE:
7/11/06: "One of my experiences in the Army was being in charge of the Army’s Imagery Interpretation for Scientific and Technical Intelligence during the Cold War. I measured pieces of Soviet equipment from photographs. It was my job. I look at the hole in the Pentagon and I look at the size of an airplane that was supposed to have hit the Pentagon. And I said, ‘The plane does not fit in that hole’. So what did hit the Pentagon? What hit it? Where is it? What's going on?"


Sorry D, but there is too much credible evidence to show that the official explanation for 911 is a bunch of outright lies. The conclusion as to who really did 911, is a very scary prospect to ponder upon, for it points more logically to who could possibly pay for and orchestrate such a massive attack... and it sure as hell wasn't a bunch of Arabs with box cutters, who didn't even have the ability to fly a heavy jet!!

cheers

fog

Comment by D. Armenta

August 7th 2008 16:24
Bill, you and Ruby seem to be awfully vocal with the "no proof" defense of David Hicks, but then you both want to jump on the rumor bandwagon when it comes to Siddiqui. The fact that her family has accused the FBI seems to be enough for both of you.

Again: why not wait for the trial, when the facts will come out?

Ruby, what exactly are you picturing with this trial? G.W. Bush and a bunch of FBI goons sitting in the courtroom with guns and menacing expressions? This isn't Marcos-era Philippines, or Castro-era Cuba, it's America. We happen to be very passionate about our judicial process. Were you aware that Dennis Kucinich stood up and listed articles of impeachment for G.W. Bush recently--and he's miraculously still living and serving in Congress?

As for your twisting of facts to accuse me of calling you a racist/sexist/whatever, I'm not even going to dignify that with an answer. I suggest you go back to that comment and read it instead of skimming it.

Bill, Ruby, for the last time: you cannot segregate people by countries/religious preferences/gender/presidents/anything. Each and every group has their share of assholes and non-assholes. Sweeping, inflammatory statements based upon rumors or personal opinions are evidence of a very narrow and uneducated mind, and judging from your writing abilities I think you both are better than that.

There are no absolutes about anyone as a group.

Comment by D. Armenta

August 7th 2008 16:41
Fog, read that comment again. It is a quote from former Australian treasurer Peter Costello, not from me. I have not voiced any opinion whatsoever about David Hicks; I am simply illustrating that Americans are not the only people who accused Hicks.

All I ask of any writer, here or elsewhere, is that they present their opinions as opinion pieces instead of breaking news.

That is irresponsible as hell; that is my opinion.

All of the facts have not come to light in the Siddiqui situation. Until more facts do come to light, posts like this one are pure, bullshit yellow journalism.

That's not a knee-jerk reaction to defend America. That's a protest against sensationalist, incendiary writing.


Comment by Free at last

August 8th 2008 00:39
bullshit yellow journalism,
and
opinion pieces
are the mainstay of bleating sheep leading crazed lemmings to their intellectual demise.

Kudos to the few adult commenting here; why don't the rest of you eject yourselves from the gene pool as a service to mankind.


Comment by Free at last

August 8th 2008 00:39
bullshit yellow journalism,
and
opinion pieces
are the mainstay of bleating sheep leading crazed lemmings to their intellectual demise.

Kudos to the few adult commenting here; why don't the rest of you eject yourselves from the gene pool as a service to mankind.


Comment by Free at last

August 8th 2008 00:49
I posted it twice; that should slow it down enough for your readers to grasp the nuances.

Comment by RubySoho

August 8th 2008 02:00
D. Please explain to me who is segregating people here?

This is a post about the FBI and the Bush administration, not America in general. The only people who have read it that way are yourself, Johnathan and Free At Last, who apparently suffers from that curious mental condition that leads one to believe that simply using big words is an indicator of impressive intellect. (Note to you Free- try backing up your rhetoric with a little substance and ease up on the metaphors. Too much of a good thing my friend).

You have to stop assuming that any criticism of America's government is a criticism of America in general.

If you read other posts on Bill's blog and posts on my own blog, you will see that we both criticise and discuss issues that happen all over the world, we certainly do not focus on America. But neither will we exempt it.

Comment by Jonathan Biviano

August 8th 2008 02:44
Ok, take my same concept and narrow it down to FBI. You can't characterize the whole FBI by one incident, which the preponderance of evidence on the Internet has shown to be completely different than what was "reported" here.

But I see it all the time. I see the media trying to tear the military a new one because of some bad apples at Abu Gharaib. I see John Murtha disparaging the entire Marine Corps for something that a fair court acquited a handful of Marines of doing.

Then there's Bill's generalization:
hate the racism, fundamentalism, prejudice, consumerism and the lust for oil
as if it's rampant in America. Racism, fundamentalism, etc. will always exist, but we've done a great job of marginalizing people who practice the first 3. Consumerism drives this nation's economy to be strong enough to bring freedom around the world. Oil is used in many, many products, including in most of the parts in Bill's computer. Oil is used in hundreds of different applications, from plastic to makeup to food additives to medicines.

Oil made it possible to have computers to type this stuff in the first place. Worried about the by-products? Ethanol emissions are 3 times as carcinogenic and redirects corn, a basic food that feeds billions and helps in the production of many other food products. Natural Gas is a third as polluting. Wind kills birds. Nuclear has waste to store. Solar power needs sunshine. Florescent Bulbs contain highly poisonous gases and fluids when they break in the landfill. Hybrid car batteries mean massive Nickel strip mining.

It's easy to criticize what we do. It's harder to provide alternatives. I don't believe America has a lust for oil, but it does need a lot of energy to run. But, I guess we could go back to horses . . . no, wait, they pass gas that's a greenhouse gas too . . Ok, back to walking, grass huts . . . no, wait, grass won't stand up to building codes.

Bah, I digress.

Comment by Damo

August 8th 2008 02:48
Bill

I did some chasing up of this story and it seems a lot messier than what was reported in The Australian.
I will leave any comment on other cases to one side:
a-because i think I have written too much about Hicks so far.
b- because it is not central to this case.

The Daily Times Pakistan runs a story headed:
Did Aafia Siddiqui smuggle gems for Al Qaeda?

Friday, August 08, 2008


Share this story!
Did Aafia Siddiqui smuggle gems for Al Qaeda?
By Khalid Hasan
exert: "Siddiqui and her husband were by now being watched by the FBI for having used a debit card to buy night-vision goggles, body armour, and military manuals from American websites,"

exert: "The arrest made news around the world. It also presaged the extraordinary vanishing act of Aafia Siddiqui and her three small children. It seems Khalid Sheikh Mohammed gave up Aafia’s name as being a major Al Qaeda operative."

From AFP headed:
Wounded Pakistani woman faces US judge
2 days ago
Gives another view of conflicting stories and a gun fight. Not sure who to believe without evidence.

Times of India
this heading
"Pak scientist has her day in court, cuts a frail figure"
Report that she was presented in court with a bullet wound. They take a reasonably neutral tone and mention the missing children and the alleged attempted murder.

And in The Australian there are several stories with conflicting reports:
"At the time of her arrest, she was carrying inside her handbag documents on how to make explosives and descriptions of various US landmarks, including in New York City, Mr Garcia said, citing the complaint filed in Manhattan federal court. "


The bottom line is that this is not just some clear cut case. When was she arrest and the process of law are still issues but we also have a good deal of missing information and serious allegations of direct involvement in terrorism. As such I am going to sit back for a while and see what other evidence comes in before passing my judgement on this case.

Comment by Bill Green

August 8th 2008 03:53
D. Armenta, Peter Costello is part of a government that has lied about the Tampa Incident; WMD's; Saddam Hussien was behind the Twin Towers, ( as did your government) and on and on it goes. Those lies are the elements that congealed into the mess we're in today. Those lies are sensational etc. and need to be reported that way. If they're not they are never noticed. The revelation of 17 rendering ships run by the US navy hasn't had it's day in the yellow press yet. It's only being run on ABC Tv programs that few see or listen to.

It seems to me that some opinion pieces are about breaking news (blogs for instance)

And what is irresponsible as hell is America paying Pakistan hundreds of millions to control the terrorists when in fact Mushareff is so frightened of the terrorists he collaborates with them.

Sorry Free at last I've already contributed to the gene pool, and I hope your dysfunctional view of human rights and free speech doesn't swim out there and infect others.

Comment by Bill Green

August 8th 2008 04:14

Damo, it'll be interesting when it gets to court, provided it does. Of course the intelligence communities are great at confusing stories, and when there is such a run of them we must wonder why so many leaks? Could it be that the real story is so damming that the FBI (still running with Hoover's culture - read J. Edgar Hoover, the man and the secrets, by Curt Gentry)) imagines that they pour out so much condemning detail that the media will eventually give up. So far the stuff is, as I've mentioned before, pure verballing: police make-up a story and beat/torture (maybe a little water as well, for its been approved by this administration) the suspect until he/she signs it.


Comment by Bill Green

August 8th 2008 04:49

Why am I so distrustful of the various intelligent communities? As a press sec to dpm, I discovered one going through the office rubbish bins one evening. On my challenging why he was even in the office he said he was waiting to see the dpm and was flying to Washington that night. Reporting him to the dpm I was told he's okay, he contributes to my election campaigns. As the dpm had previously been an intelligent operative in a state police force I left it at that. This individual was part of the first couple to be married by Junie Morosi (also lover of the dpm) when she became a celebrant.

In China in the seventies I was approached by the head of Chinese intelligence (so secret the organisation doesn't have a name) to gather information for them. It was a casual request and I refused it, saying Australia was so transparent it even had open-government journals (which it did then). He said, "We are very different peoples." I suggest that we aren't any longer. Our open culture has been flushed (down) by fear. These incidents are satirically reported in my novel, Compulsively Murdering Mao, a new edition soon to be available on Amazon.

Comment by Bill Green

August 8th 2008 06:18
Morgan, just caught up with your very telling piece.

Comment by Damo

August 8th 2008 06:21
Bill

As you can see the facts are very messy in this case and my only concern for now is that due process is followed so that truth can be exposed.

I have been down the path of following emotionally provocative stories before only to find out I was being led by the nose by people with narrow ambitions.

Regardless of which I will pay attention to this story with a much more opened mind than when I read story in the Australian.

Regards
Damo

Comment by D. Armenta

August 8th 2008 14:04
Bill, Ruby; if you're attempting to sidestep the issue by trying to put me on the defensive about the U.S., don't waste your time. That's debate 101, for pete's sake.

The fact remains: you have jumped the gun with this story. You have made a sensational claim that is deliberately intended to stir up peoples' emotions without bothering to get any facts.
In fact, "yellow journalism" is too good a name for this. This is irresponsible crap, written for no better reason than to get page hits by pissing people off.

You were a press secretary, Bill? In that case, double shame on you.

Comment by Bill Green

August 9th 2008 01:35
I'm actually a reformed character. It was my job at one point to cloud issues and then I stopped and became a muckraking novelist and exposed the various cultures I've lived through.

We're yet to see this story thoroughly exposed and all the details raked over. Certainly I know the security agencies are panicked over this one; they've been too quick with confusing stories.

Don't be defensive over America. It's not worth it. Neither is Australia, Russia, China etc. The individual is the only entity to be concerned about.

And if you're not off the mark (seeing we're into Olympic metaphors) with a story it doesn't get reported. Didn't jump the gun on this one though. I commented on a story in the right wing (Murdoch owned) Australian. They've even reported the fact of rendering and no one is denying it's on. It was a UK plane watcher who figured it all out some years ago. Why don't you imagine this has happened when it has already happened over and over?

Rendering is a disgraceful, inhuman policy resulting in death, permanent injury, and mental disturbance but America has followed Russia and China (and all those bogus African democracies) into that hell.

Comment by Teresa Ralton

January 12th 2009 08:05
Hi Bill
A very interesting discussion going on here. It is always hard to work out the truth from the lies when there is so much deception. Hoover sprang into my mind, too, as an example of fear-mongering and abuse of power. Reading about that era and seeing old footage of the trials, I am horrified that it could have even happened. Of course we all welcome vigilance because of the terrorist acts that have been committed against the West, but there have been too many instances of aggression towards people merely suspected of involvement. Just listening to George Bush's speeches, it was sickeningly clear that the US govt felt justified in trampling over human rights in order to achieve their objective. Even those who had the audacity to comment on this were treated as traitors (remember Dixie Chicks?). And even the guilty deserve to be treated as human beings. But Aus has followed suit. I am thinking, for example, about that Indian guy (forget his name) who was cleared of any wrong-doing and now plans to sue the Aus governement. It is scary how many people support these tactics. It seems like we are picking on the US but, like a couple of people have said, it's the US government that we don't like, not the American people.
I have 2 questions: What is Rendering?
What is a dpm?
And just as a related issue - a few years ago I read a marketing book in which the author claimed that a marketing campaign was used in the 1960s to turn public opinion against Cuba so that the US could maintain an economic hold because of the fortune it was making from certain agricultural crops. Might have been sugar! Maybe I'm getting my facts mixed up. Do you know anything about this?

Comment by Bill Green

January 27th 2009 08:02
Hi Theresa, rendering is kidnapping by American security who then hand the victim over to Turkey, Egypt et al for torturing. The water boarding we see film of whenever Bush's torture regime is criticised is part of the rendering process ,as is anal penetration as reported by Hicks. These aspects are documented and there is no controversy concerning them. The process was discovered when a UK plane watcher recoded planes landing on an airfield he was was monitoring. He tracked their numbers and they belonged to the CIA. Further investigation revealed that they were flying the rendered to their torture locations.

dpm is deputy prime minister.


Comment by Teresa Ralton

January 27th 2009 09:05
Hi Bill
Thanks for replying. After watching the John Pilger doco, which I did a post on I now think the country I read about in the marketing book was Guatemala. Whatever! It was given as an example of advertising being dangerous. The copywriter who came up with the brilliant copy was mortified when he discovered how it was to be used. Anyway, the John Pilger doco has ex-CIA chiefs expressing their extreme views. If you do get to watch it, knowledgeable comment would be appreciated. Really Long Link
Teresa

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